Is math useless

math studies and then? [Page 2]

The Mole  πŸ“… 05.04.2013 14:12:04
Re: study math and then?
Math Guru wrote:
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> You will no longer need the knowledge in your job;

As far as I would still agree with you. Above all, the analytical mindset and the way of approaching problems are valuable for companies.

> is appropriate
> then also the payment! Hence a
> Math studies from financial and
> completely useless from a professional point of view (i
> speak from experience) ...

I'm sorry you had this experience, but I absolutely cannot confirm that! All the mathematicians / physicists I know found jobs with no problems! The payment was with many FAR above the average of academics.
Anonymous  πŸ“… 05.04.2013 14:13:45
Re: study math and then?
Morale wrote:
> ... but I sometimes know differently ...

I know differently from many years of professional experience.
Math guru  πŸ“… 05.04.2013 17:02:47
Re: study math and then?
DerMole wrote:
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> Math Guru wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>> You will no longer acquire knowledge in your job
> need;
>
> As far as I would still agree with you. Precious
> for companies are above all the analytical ones
> Mindset and the way to approach problems.
>
>> is appropriate
>> then also the payment! Hence a
>> Math studies from financial and
>> completely useless from a professional point of view (I
>> speak from experience) ...
>
> I'm sorry for your experience
> have, but I absolutely cannot confirm that!
> All mathematicians / physicists I know have
> found a job without any problems! The payment was
> For many, FAR above the average of
> Academics.

Imagine, I found a job without any problems! But I would have found this job if I had just completed an apprenticeship and not sacrificed half my youth to studying math.

Specifically, I work in the SAP industry, in which quite a few physicists / mathematicians work. As usual, you will only get the top salaries that have often been invoked if you are a manager or let others work for you or become self-employed. Otherwise the German average wage is paid. As you can easily imagine, this occupation has nothing to do with math, except that it is extremely nerve-wracking, since you are dealing with an uncontrollable monster that has grown over decades, and only playing the whipping boy for customers with exaggerated expectations. The salary is therefore more of a compensation for pain and suffering than recognition or even compensation for a demanding course of study. I also cannot imagine that other "mathematicians jobs" differ in this regard. I only want students to take away the illusion of the colorful, cheerful, well-paid mathematician working world that is spread in the media with intent or out of ignorance.

And what do you mean by above average pay? Probably more than the not uncommon € 35,000 that many graduates are now also paid in the MINT area (please inform us!). In this regard, of course, I also earn above average, but have also waived a salary for at least 5 years. After a few years of professional experience, colleagues with an apprenticeship and a spark of talent often earn more in the IT industry than any mathematician who enters the profession, which does not change much even after a few years.

And believe me, almost no math graduate in this country will pay you € 60,000 or more straight away, if only because you have to start from scratch in your job, and apart from your analytical thinking skills - which you have to bring with you BEFORE you start your studies , because without this ability you would definitely not have made it - you have nothing to show! I find it irresponsible how, year after year, thousands of students with such vague arguments (e.g. secure job, good pay, etc.) are lured into studying math. I am certainly no more incompetent than your math / physics classmates whose salaries you think you know. And I also have to mention that I've heard of unemployed mathematicians. These are about those who went swimming with their 2-year diploma thesis, but were somehow still able to complete their studies.

In short, I hardly see any advantages that math graduates would have when looking for a job, for example, over IT graduates, even if the former probably had a much more demanding degree. I also applied for internships / jobs in the insurance sector, but as a business mathematician I only received rejections there. The relevant jobs in insurance / banking are extremely few and far between (also in the wake of the financial crisis) and in some cases are also interesting for computer scientists, so that there is hardly a chance of being taken without vitamin B. Apart from that, I cannot contribute much to the subject of risk management, actuarial mathematics, etc. because I never got the chance to do an internship there. However, I know someone who got an internship there through Vitamin B and who also went into IT after graduating.

From my point of view, the often-cited shortage of skilled workers is also incorrect. Even if mathematicians are mentioned again and again in this context, two or three years ago I could hardly find real mathematician jobs, for which a doctorate was almost always a prerequisite.

I can be accused of complaining at a high level, because despite the shortage of skilled workers, there are STEM graduates who have still not found anything a year after graduation. However, this was about the financial aspect, and since you start all over again after your studies and are paid accordingly, a math degree cannot, in my opinion, be beneficial in finding and practicing a career.

Of course, as a math / physics student, you don't primarily focus on salary, but study the subject out of interest. However, I have seen too many bad lectures and can confidently say that you could also acquire the knowledge privately. If you still want to do something with math later, you should become a teacher or stay at the university on poor terms for the time being. As long as the FRG does not have to save the whole world and has a few reserves left, math teaching is a really acceptable choice with a view of civil servant status and minimum pension. However, I am no longer enthusiastic about the diploma / master’s course with the subsequent prospects.
Mathlose  πŸ“… 09.04.2013 12:42:48
Re: study math and then?
I finished my master’s degree in mathematics about a year ago with an overall grade of good. Despite the alleged shortage of skilled workers in the MINT subjects, I have not yet been able to find a suitable position. Is it because I'm over 50 years old? Is it because hiring a child is considered absolutely fatal for a career? Or is it because, with a previously successfully completed industrial engineering degree and decades of professional experience in the software industry, I don't want to work for the salary of a young professional? It's strange when a large number of my applications are rejected out of hand.
zwiewi  πŸ“… 22.04.2013 09:13:55
Re: study math and then?
Math Guru wrote:
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> I have myself
> also on internships / jobs in the insurance sector
> applied, but as a business mathematician there
> only rejections plugged in. The relevant jobs in
> Insurance companies / banks are (also in the course of
> Financial crisis) extremely few and far between
> also interesting for computer scientists, so that one
> There is hardly a chance of being taken there without vitamin B.
> to become. Apart from that, I can on the topic
> Risk management, actuarial mathematics, etc.
> don't contribute much because I never got the chance
> about doing an internship there.

I know vitamin B opens doors. But have you ever thought about using the wrong strategy?
The problem that many companies have with interns is that they are entitled to learn. They cost significantly less than working students, but they also do more work.
Perhaps you should have tried it first as a working student - even if it might only have been copy jobs at the beginning. But then you would have already had your foot in the door and would have had the chance to show your knowledge and interest and thus draw attention to yourself for an internship.
Math guru  πŸ“… 23.04.2013 21:26:43
Re: study math and then?
@zwiewi:
During my studies, I also did two internships, including at a large automotive supplier. However, I only got that internship through Vitmin B after all efforts to get an internship there via the online job exchange came to nothing (perhaps such job exchanges only serve to evaluate collected data and to sell it profitably, which hopefully is not the case is). From my point of view, an internship can perhaps "get a feel for" everyday work and, with appropriate rhetorical skills, make superficial "contact"; the technical learning effect is zero, however, since in my experience none of the established employees try to find interns and you really have to "beg" for work. After such experiences, people tend not to apply there and use their bogus contacts. You can only gain professional experience in your job by moving in a long-term industry and not by short-term stays in various companies, which also includes a working student contract. After all, companies are only interested in the money when it comes to student contracts, as they can be lured cheaply with alleged work experience, and employers can charge several hundred euros per day even for young professionals (e.g. consulting industry). Such cheap labor only tends to detract from the value of students. Sounds dramatic, but it's true!

Ultimately, it's a shame for me that as a graduate, relationships are almost the only way to get a good job, especially if you've got a good degree in an oh-so-popular subject. Given the desperate shortage of skilled workers, I would actually have expected employers (including insurance companies, banks, sensible IT companies, ...) at the university gate, but this was not in the least the case. Instead, you are insulted as a theorist in job interviews when you apply for your first internship.

In short, I advise every student from a non-wealthy family to think twice about starting a course of study, especially at a university (except perhaps for a teaching degree or something similar, as there is still a hint of equal opportunities among the graduates). At universities in particular, only the self-declared capital elite who have their well-paid job safe. The rest then end up in some (mostly temporary) employment contracts for which an apprenticeship would have been completely sufficient and earn accordingly, but only in their mid-twenties!
It would be better to do an apprenticeship in a good corporation and find work there or pursue a career in government. Then you have some advantages over students, of which the latter can only dream: You earn money earlier, have less stress overall (learning marathon, exams, ...), do not have to be insulted in job interviews as theoreticians or young professionals, usually get overtime paid, and can profitably use his professional experience. Unfortunately, these are not prejudices, but my experiences.
MisterXXX  πŸ“… 24.04.2013 14:32:11
Re: study math and then?
Math Guru wrote:
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> In short, I advise every student
> Parents who are not well-off, feel good about themselves
> Consider studying, especially at a
> Uni to begin (except maybe a
> Teacher training or similar, there is still a hint of
> Equal opportunities among the graduates).
> Especially at the universities only the
> Self-declared capital elite who do their good
> already has a paid job. The rest ends up
> then in any (mostly temporary)
> Employment relationships for which training
> would have been completely sufficient and deserved
> accordingly, but not until mid-20s!
> It would be better to have an apprenticeship in one
> to make a good company and to stay there
> Or embark on a career in government. Then
> one has some advantages over students, from
> which the latter can only dream: Man
> Earns money earlier, has less overall
> Stress (learning marathon, exams, ...) has to be
> Not as a theorist in job interviews
> or let newcomers insult them